Curse

gordongraydon · Apr 07, 2006, 01:46 AM // 01:46

any suggestions/build ideas for the R/W class vs the W/R

strengths weaknesses of both?

monty123 · Apr 07, 2006, 05:54 AM // 05:54

W/R Because you can ascend and than change to w/n and solo GrenthsFootprint/SF.

But other than no other reasons

lzlz · Apr 07, 2006, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordongraydon

any suggestions/build ideas for the R/W class vs the W/R

strengths weaknesses of both?

If you use melee weapons --> W/R
If you use bows --> R/W

Think what you need the most --> AL or Energy

Barnoc · Apr 07, 2006, 07:34 PM // 19:34

I'm not using either for PvP, so I can't offer any advice in that area.

I have a Ranger/Warrior (Hammer/Beast) that is a lot of fun as a caster protector/second tank in PvE. I understand that the combo is often called a "bunny thumper". The lower armor is a small problem when he's moved into the primary tank role, but if the group understand the method of play we can do well. The expertise mojo supply really helps this weapon / skill combo. Don't believe all the "if you don't use bow, don't go ranger" talk. A lot of good ranger combos are not marksmanship based. Ranger/Necro (vampiric touch rangers), for instance, are very-very fun to play.

My Warrior/Ranger is using Axe/Tactics/Wilderness Survival to make him fantastic PvE tank. I really like him in that role, but he's not "flashy" in any way. You have a few really nice defensive options, and the pet helps as well. If you like being a meat-shield, this is a very strong way to do it.

Effigy · Apr 07, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

For axe, the W/R is pretty much going to be better, hands down. Sword is pretty much the same, although it does have a few more energy attacks.

Hammer is the main reason to make a melee R/W, since it allows you to spam Irresistable Blow and Tiger's Fury. TF is also useful on axe and sword warriors, but Frenzy is generally a better substitute.

lzlz · Apr 07, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnoc

I'm not using either for PvP, so I can't offer any advice in that area.

I have a Ranger/Warrior (Hammer/Beast) that is a lot of fun as a caster protector/second tank in PvE. I understand that the combo is often called a "bunny thumper". The lower armor is a small problem when he's moved into the primary tank role, but if the group understand the method of play we can do well. The expertise mojo supply really helps this weapon / skill combo. Don't believe all the "if you don't use bow, don't go ranger" talk. A lot of good ranger combos are not marksmanship based. Ranger/Necro (vampiric touch rangers), for instance, are very-very fun to play.

My Warrior/Ranger is using Axe/Tactics/Wilderness Survival to make him fantastic PvE tank. I really like him in that role, but he's not "flashy" in any way. You have a few really nice defensive options, and the pet helps as well. If you like being a meat-shield, this is a very strong way to do it.

Indeed, the logic behind is that if you use bow, you should never consider to be a W/R, as you'll have much restricted energy.

For sure R/W can use melee. Many R/W can do well in PVP because they can evade, blind, poison, dodge...etc. Thus making use of both the high damage output of melee weapons from Warrior, and the self-protecting (actually evade or run-away) skills from Ranger. But most R/W may have forgotten that they cannot access to the Melee weapon runes. Therefore, their max attribute on the weapon mastery can only be 12. And as a R/W, you basically do not have any skills to increase your damage (if you use melee) unless Tiger's Fury (to attack faster) and Poison (with constant degen). R/W usually get owned by W/N because of their failure in blinding or poisoning the Warrior + the fact that they have weaker armor + lower damage output than most warriors. This makes a melee R/W not in a favorable situation when comparing to a typical W/R Axe warrior. Unless you can evade most of the time, otherwise R/W will be much less effective in terms of damage output in a group.

However, R/W is fun to play especially when you are fighting some dumb and new warriors in RA who don't know how to deal with your blind/evade/poison skills. But when you meet an experienced player, there isn't much space for a R/W to stand in front of tradiationl melee Warrior.

As I have mentioned a million times in my other posts, don't always trust people in the forum, especially in choosing weapon/skills/professions. You can treat the info as a reference but not just follow the guide blindly. Just follow your own mind and preference. Enjoy the game is the most important.

Many job combinations can be fun to play with. But if gordongraydon is asking strictly between W/R and R/W, I will say go W/R for melee and R/W for bows. You can use melee for R/W. Just it has less damage output. But W/R using a bow is a really bad idea.

sh4ft3d · Apr 07, 2006, 09:45 PM // 21:45

^ Exactly as Iziz said. R/W is really fun for RA.

gordongraydon · Apr 08, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

thnx for replying, i have decided to not make a R/W mainly because of lack of access to warrior runes. you have a really good point there

thanx for replying everyone

Kamahl The Great · Apr 08, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

R/W I'd say, R/W you can do alot with that people dont seem to see alot of the time. ie. Farm Minotaurs, Hydras, Imps(/me is better though), FoW

And R/W In PvP using sword stances/ripostes will destroy a warrior about 90% of the time

lzlz · Apr 09, 2006, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamahl The Great

And R/W In PvP using sword stances/ripostes will destroy a warrior about 90% of the time

If the warrior is stupid enough to:
- attack another warrior in PVP (unless you are the last one left)
- keep attacking the warrior if he/she knows that you are using riposte(s)

A smart warrior will just go away, dance for a while, and leave the job for the casters. Or, if you have strong equipment + high damage + high health, just keep attacking even they have ripostes. I can't recall how many times I kill warriors with Glad Defense, riposte, plague touch, mending, healing breeze....all those skills that they think they can use to "own" another warriors.

PVP requires tactics and strategy, not just attack a target blindly without studying what skills your foes are using and their weakness. After certain practices, you will be able to tell the build your foes are using and their weakness within seconds, and change your tactics accordingly.

Effigy · Apr 10, 2006, 02:45 PM // 14:45

R/W can blind, poison, use a pet and so on, but the real reason for making a melee R/W is Expertise, which allows you to spam otherwise costly skills. This is why hammer is a good choice: has several energy attacks and is more about utility than outright damage (hence the runes are less of an issue). A R/W may only be able to get 12 Hammer Mastery, but they can chain KDs just as well or better, with some other tricks up their sleeve to boot. Spamming Irresistable Blow for 2e a pop should easily compensate for the extra attribute points a W/* would have. And not taking double damage from Frenzy helps compensate for having weaker armor.

Timmeh · Apr 11, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by lzlz

For sure R/W can use melee. Many R/W can do well in PVP because they can evade, blind, poison, dodge...etc. Thus making use of both the high damage output of melee weapons from Warrior, and the self-protecting (actually evade or run-away) skills from Ranger. But most R/W may have forgotten that they cannot access to the Melee weapon runes. Therefore, their max attribute on the weapon mastery can only be 12. And as a R/W, you basically do not have any skills to increase your damage (if you use melee) unless Tiger's Fury (to attack faster) and Poison (with constant degen).

Quote:

Originally Posted by lzlz

PVP requires tactics and strategy, not just attack a target blindly without studying what skills your foes are using and their weakness. After certain practices, you will be able to tell the build your foes are using and their weakness within seconds, and change your tactics accordingly.

It certainly does take tactics and strategy, although you don't really get those 2 behind r/w hammer. The ranger part is not at all for the running away/evading etc, the 2 main reason for r/w
1) 24/7 TF (which a warrior can't rly do)
2) Bigger energy pool (handy for hammer attacks)

The 2 advantages will result in an almost constant knocking down, but with way smaller dmg then a warrior can. If the ranger brings a pet 2, with call of haste, he gets in enourmous amounts of small hits (-> prot spirit/rof is useless vs it)

In other words. The "bunny thumper" is not suited for instant high dmg attacks, as would be the case in spike teams for instance, but for a presure dmg team. With a constant degen of some sort, and 2 monks sitting on their ass half the time, well, you do the math.

Cade · Apr 11, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

I say W/R, because strength skills are pretty good in many ways, and expertise are not.

Effigy · Apr 11, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cade

I say W/R, because strength skills are pretty good in many ways, and expertise are not.

In PvP, the only Strength skills you'll probably be using are Sprint and maybe Bull's Strike. Sprint is easily replaced by Storm Chaser and Bull's Strike can be dropped for other hammer KDs.

Expertise gives you Throw Dirt and Whirling Defense in addition to reduced energy costs.

For PvE the warrior armor and absorption are generally more useful, but in PvP the hammer R/W has a definite advantage.

Timmeh · Apr 11, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

It's not so much the expertise skills that help. It's the reduced energy cost because of the expertise, it makes TF / hammer skills etc. spammable.

I also believe ranger has 1 more pip of energy regen (but i'm not sure on this). Anyway, you can even ditch a zealots hammer for a 5/1 vamp or sundering hammer for instance.

Anyway. R/W or W/R - in pvp anyway - is just based on what you want to acomplish with it -> W/R lots of dmg, or R/W lots of knockdowns.

edit: Ranger can also get 16 in beast mastery, making the pet do really decent damage.

PrincessAki · Apr 12, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Regarding Timmeh's posts ---

Hammer is the most effective weapon that a "Bunny Thumper" can use. The only reason that you will want to be a R/W is that you would like to utilize the evade/dodge skills. No ranger can survive on the frontline without any evade skills. That's why they are designed to use range attack (bows). I will say a R/W must evade 24/7 or else it is just like suiciding. 70 base armor without a shield and fighting on the frontline...you can calculate the damage.

Knockdown is becoming a less issue in PVP as more people starting to bring skills which will avoid knockdown, which further makes hammer less effective in PVP.

It will be a very bad idea to put 16 attributes into Beast Mastery just because you want your pet to fight for you. In my opinion, pet is useless in PVP except for the IWAY build. Did you ever see any Pet in GVG?

As for the conditions like blinding and poison, W/N with Plague Touch will give you back everything.

In many cases, a build works in places like Random Arena doesn't mean that build works. It maybe because your opponents are weak, your teammates are strong, or simply you are lucky.

I will say R/W is fun to play in Random Arena. You will be able to kill many warriors who are new to this game. Afterall, IMO Ranger with bows will be much stronger (at least much higher damage) than a Ranger with Melee weapons.

GooD KaRmA · Apr 13, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

I love when a R/W tries to hit my W/R with a hammer, usually when I'm chasing the monk. Nothing better then killing him in 5 hits while he does his little tigers fury for damage usually under 30. Sure he can blind me or try to evade but he's just buying himself time. It's even better when a somebody uses frenzy in pvp, the other day I hit a warrior with a power shot for 160 damage....

Katari · Apr 13, 2006, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrincessAki

I will say a R/W must evade 24/7 or else it is just like suiciding. 70 base armor without a shield and fighting on the frontline...you can calculate the damage.

Thumpers don't really need evasion/block stances any more than a bow ranger would in PvP. How many cripshot rangers do you see spaming evade/block stances?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrincessAki

Knockdown is becoming a less issue in PVP as more people starting to bring skills which will avoid knockdown, which further makes hammer less effective in PVP.

Right, like the hordes of /W casters using balanced stance, and eles with Ward of Stability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrincessAki

It will be a very bad idea to put 16 attributes into Beast Mastery just because you want your pet to fight for you. In my opinion, pet is useless in PVP except for the IWAY build. Did you ever see any Pet in GVG?

I've seen some rather highly-ranked guilds run a bunch of Thumpers as their offense, each R/W had a pet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrincessAki

I will say R/W is fun to play in Random Arena. You will be able to kill many warriors who are new to this game. Afterall, IMO Ranger with bows will be much stronger (at least much higher damage) than a Ranger with Melee weapons.

Warriors are not what Thumpers are designed to target, casters are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GooD KaRmA

I hit a warrior with a power shot for 160 damage....

Power shot? People use that skill? You must have caught him doing the frenzsig combo. Hurray for RA!

PrincessAki · Apr 13, 2006, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

Thumpers don't really need evasion/block stances any more than a bow ranger would in PvP. How many cripshot rangers do you see spaming evade/block stances?

Show me one single R/W Thumpers build that doesn't have any Evade/Block skills or Blinding/Poison skills, and they can actually fight and survive in PVP/GVG. Then we'll talk.

They have nerfed crippling shot and many people have dumped this skill already. Did they tell you?

Quote:

I've seen some rather highly-ranked guilds run a bunch of Thumpers as their offense, each R/W had a pet.

Sorry, I watch GVG match everyday and they lost almost every single time in GVG. Name the "high-rank" guilds with R/W (using melee) and pets.

Quote:

Warriors are not what Thumpers are designed to target, casters are.

I didn't say Warriors are the target of Thumpers. Aren't we comparing the builds between W/R and R/W only?

Both Warriors and Thumpers are attacking the casters. But W/R will be much more effective than R/W to kill a caster, especially with your argument that R/W doesn't need any evade/block skills

70 base AL with no shield with no evade/block skills and you are planning to kill a caster.....

JR · Apr 13, 2006, 12:42 PM // 12:42

In terms of melee:

R/W = More pressure.
W/R = More spike.

Asuming R/W is hammer, as that is by far the most effective melee Ranger weapon.

So in a build with a load of pressure (like Rifts Fire Eles/Minions build) it might be a good idea to throw a R/W Thumper in. In a build which focuses more on adren spiking, W/R would be the way forward.

Gimmick builds with multiple thumpers are amusing to watch, but not particularly good.